Fallout 3: Post Apoc Teasing

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Some teasing from the Bethesda Games Fallout 3 forum, when asked about what’s behind the Chinese rifles Gstaff had this to say:

As mentioned before, at some point we’ll be doing another Fan Interview. I’ve seen this come up a few times, so maybe that’s one you could ask.

And this:

When the time arises, we’ll figure out a format…might be the same…might be different. When I have more news on this, I’ll give you guys notice.

More importantly:

There will be more information between now and E3…yes. That’s as much as I’m going to say.

So it can’t be easy for you knowing things and not being able to tell them:

Yeah, it’s not easy.

Bah, it’s harder not to know.

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31 thoughts on “Fallout 3: Post Apoc Teasing

  1. Yeah, I can imagine it not being easy for them to hear people going about how the game’s gonna be, and speculating about it, and maybe even spreading false words, but I’m SOOO able to imagine it being even hard for them to hear people complaining about actual facts when they let them out… :\

    I mean, if in the one hand they don’t like not telling, I think they are a bit afraid of telling in the other hand… But I don’t know.

  2. Their inability to grasp what will or will not piss off people never fails to amaze me. They actually seemed to think that the Brotherhood of Steel profile would be well received amongst Fallout fans. What, are you joking? You turn the BoS into a bunch of pansy-ass do-gooders and expect an applause?!

    That said, they really are too strict for their own good. It’s better now that some core info is more solid, but the way they just let misinformation that they could clear up in a single forum post hang around just so they can protect the exclusive right to info of their media buddies is disgusting

  3. The problem is, that the HC fans vision greatly different Fallout 3 what anyone is willing to offer. Van Buren showed that the series was going to take a new direction, and Bethesdas take is even further away from that. Being anal on every detail doesn’t serve nobody.

    Bethesda has done numerous things on Fallout 3 that I don’t personally agree on, but it is so that one must believe in what one is doing. It doesn’t serve anybody in doing a game that you don’t personally believe in. It just doesn’t work, that is why gamecompanies don’t accept “game ideas” and works in that nature from outsiders.

    I am willing to wait and see, that’s that. Then we will know for sure how things are. Nothing more to speculate upon.

    And as nowdays gamedevelopment costs “a lot”, they don’t really have a change of doing faithfull isometric Fallout 2.5. It just wouldn’t sell, even if we, as fans, would like it to. PC is ridden with piracy, and console audience wouldn’t buy such game. Of course these are only small issues on much bigger picture, but one must understand certain logics behind certain actions.

  4. I don’t think Van Buren and this Fallout 3 are comparable. The criticism of Van Buren was mostly anal, because Van Buren was a change, yes, but an evolution. This is a revolution, and while I have seen plenty of anal criticism, I’ve also seen plenty that simply addresses the fact that Bethesda is slicing out core mechanics and setting bits left and right.

    And no, I’m not going to roll over for Bethesda’s “vision”. If they wanted to implement their own vision, why didn’t they make their own game? They didn’t, they bought someone else’s.

    Please, keep your corporate apologism away from me. Bethesda has never done anything for me that makes me think “hey, I should give them a break.” And despite what people believe, I’m a fairly easy-going fella. But that doesn’t equate rolling over to play dead for no reason.

    And as nowdays gamedevelopment costs “a lot”,

    No it doesn’t. It only does when you want to sell your games to millions rather than to, say, just Fallout fans.

  5. The post wasn’t really aimed towars you.

    There are numerous things that would not just work if you decide to move and make Fallout 3 in the fashion of Fallout 2 with better graphics and more of everything. You couldn’t sell that on consoles, you wouldn’t make a profit.

    No one asks you to roll over anything, you should just understand the basics behind it. They bought the license, so they own it, so they will make a Fallout game. I am not into guessing games, what is done is done. Playing by the facts is much easier than speculate “what if, why they didn’t”.

    You didn’t get the point obviously. So I will explain: if you go out to make a game, you make a game YOU wan’t to do. Not game what someone else WANT’S you to do. Simple as that.

    It does, do you think people do them for free. That’s wrong assumption. Just Fallout fans would kill any commercial success, I guess it wouldn’t even break even. Especially on PC. RPG’s demand high amount (man)years of work.

    So, then comes this, as Fallout community is so vocal, and so anal on every detail. Why don’t they make their own Fallout envisioned game, make a true sequel.

    Since, as you said, if it was to be sold to Fallout fans, it wouldn’t cost much, if anything, to develop. Numerous and countless modprojects, but no-one has dared to start a new project from groundup, or come close to releasing it after that. It takes money, or ten+ years.

    I am not defending Bethesda, I loved the originals. It’s true that I might not be as anal as some are over the project. But there is just so much you can do. Facts being what they are, I am willing to give the game a chance. Although I am not really following it’s development day-by-day. I disagree with their PR management(towards hype), I disagree with their community-manager(useless).

    There are certain sites that just won’t accept anything beyond their own vision of Fallout 3, and that’s bit sad, since we all now that won’t happen.

  6. @ droveri

    And as nowdays gamedevelopment costs “a lot”, they don’t really have a change of doing faithfull isometric Fallout 2.5. It just wouldn’t sell, even if we, as fans, would like it to. PC is ridden with piracy, and console audience wouldn’t buy such game.

    Then tell me this: why did Fallout and Fallout 2 sell, back then, while it had no piracy protection and the RPG niche market was much smaller than it is now? You know, there is an actual answer for this, I just want you to figure it out. It’s the same answer to “why does geneforge sells?”.

    And as nowdays gamedevelopment costs “a lot”,

    No it doesn’t, it actually costs LESS to make a game today than it did 10 years ago to make the exact same game… You have cheap engines, you have modding tools for engine-like games, you even have freeware engines you can use for your game. It’s just so much cheaper and easier… Of course, you missed the point.

    There are numerous things that would not just work if you decide to move and make Fallout 3 in the fashion of Fallout 2 with better graphics and more of everything. You couldn’t sell that on consoles, you wouldn’t make a profit.

    Well then, maybe that’s the reason why Fallout was a PC exclusive… You have to dumb down games for consoles, and we don’t want that, do we?

    You didn’t get the point obviously. So I will explain: if you go out to make a game, you make a game YOU wan’t to do. Not game what someone else WANT’S you to do. Simple as that.

    Ah, if only it was that simple. And why is bethesda making games according to what other people want? I mean, yeah, they did that with Oblivion (lead designer words, check them) and they are clearly doing it with FOE too… Why? It goes against what you say…

    And besides, like in EVERYTHING else, if you want to sell something, you are doing a game for other people, not for you. This is not modding, buddy, this is not free games. This is business, and they are making it according to what sells the most. Your logic is flawed.

    It does, do you think people do them for free. That’s wrong assumption. Just Fallout fans would kill any commercial success, I guess it wouldn’t even break even. Especially on PC. RPG’s demand high amount (man)years of work.

    Yeah, but it doesn’t demand pretty grapheex, it doesn’t demand millions in marketing, it doesn’t demand armies of artists in the team. That’s why they have to aim it elsewhere. If they wanted to aim it at us, they’d lower the production costs. Fallout’s a B game. It always has been.

    So, then comes this, as Fallout community is so vocal, and so anal on every detail. Why don’t they make their own Fallout envisioned game, make a true sequel.

    That’s what happens with every game. People like a game, and they are influenced by it. If you happen NOT to be a game developer, you are not, but if you do, well, then you get the chance to make the game as you see fit. Clearly Bethesda are not Fallout fans (otherwise Oblivion wouldn’t be as it is), but there are other people. I don’t know, I could name Age of Decadence? Has Fallout influence in there…

    The thing is, they ARE doing Fallout envisioned games, they just don’t name it Fallout. Unlike bethesda who names their game Fallout but it turns out it’s not Fallout envisioned… What part of it is Fallout? The Pipboy? The Vaults? Ah, right.

  7. I just want to add, strictly talking about sales, that anybody crusading for Fallout 3 to be similar to the first 2 or even Van Buren is obviously playing with somebody elses money. You guys seen the PC sales numbers?

    (excluding WOW which is it’s own beast and holds the top 2 slots)
    3. The Sims 2* – Electronic Arts – 534K
    4. The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 433K
    5. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* – Activision – 383K
    6. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars* – Electronic Arts – 350K
    7. MS Age of Empires III* – Microsoft – 313K
    8. Sim City 4* – Electronic Arts – 294K
    9. MS Flight Simulator X* – Microsoft – 280K
    10. The Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 272K

    contrast that with console numbers:

    1. Halo 3 (Xbox 360, Microsoft) – 4.82 million
    2. Wii Play w/remote (Wii, Nintendo) – 4.12 million
    3. Call of Duty 4 (Xbox 360, Activision) – 3.04 million
    4. Guitar Hero III: Legends Of Rock w/guitar (PlayStation 2, Neversoft/Budcat/Activision) 2.72 million
    5. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii, Nintendo) – 2.52 million
    6. Pokemon Diamond (DS, Nintendo) – 2.48 million
    7. Madden NFL 08 (PS2, Electronic Arts) – 1.90 million
    8. Guitar Hero II w/guitar (PS2, Activision) – 1.89 million
    9. Assassin’s Creed (Xbox 360, Ubisoft) – 1.87 million
    10. Mario Party 8 (Wii, Nintendo) – 1.82 million

    Those numbers are horrendously, pathetically low for PC- COD4, 2007’s best selling game sold 3 million units (7 million worldwide) and only 383k on the PC? PC gaming is not in a good place. I love PC gaming, I prefer to game on the PC but you’d be an absolute fool to develop a game that resembles an old school style of crpg in this climate. And do you see *what* type of games are in the top 10? It’s one FPS, two RTS, one flight sim and mostly Sims, which is a great indication of the PC demographic buying most of the games- I doubt that demographc buys anything resembling a Fallout. Last I’d heard S.T.A.L.K.E.R. barely cleared 100k.

    Bless you guys for sticking to your guns, but if they want to sell games the last thing they should do is listen to NMA because you guys throw all fiscal and market responsibility out the window when making your demands.

  8. Just to clarify my sentence “I just want to add, strictly talking about sales, that anybody crusading for Fallout 3 to be similar to the first 2”- I meant as similar to the first 2 as NMA and similar sites would have it be.

  9. @Morbus

    Then tell me this: why did Fallout and Fallout 2 sell, back then, while it had no piracy protection and the RPG niche market was much smaller than it is now? You know, there is an actual answer for this, I just want you to figure it out. It’s the same answer to “why does geneforge sells?”.

    Fallout & Fallout 2 didn’t have that great sales, good for RPG games, but nothing stellar.

    No it doesn’t, it actually costs LESS to make a game today than it did 10 years ago to make the exact same game… You have cheap engines, you have modding tools for engine-like games, you even have freeware engines you can use for your game. It’s just so much cheaper and easier… Of course, you missed the point.

    Game with engine and art of Fallout 2 wouldn’t sell, and we are talking about modern games here. You are mixing and matching, all but reality. No matter what you do, it needs people to make a game, Fallout 2 team, strip all the work done for the engine, and still you have large team. Years work ahead, that costs real money. It doesn’t happen by ones good grace.

    The thing you dont’ grasp here is, that people don’t do their job for free, and there is inflation of prices also in the gameindustry.

    How can I be the one missing the point if you are quoting me?

    Well then, maybe that’s the reason why Fallout was a PC exclusive… You have to dumb down games for consoles, and we don’t want that, do we?

    Dumbing down, that’s the most heard argument in this feud. I don’t agree on either side, i.e that consoles wouldn’t affect the other versions – of course they do. But the extent is totally up to the developer.

    It comes down to gamedesign choices, they have to work on both platforms(talking about multiplatform game). If I do this, I can’t do this. And as proven, PC only game wouldn’t break even with modern developmentcosts and piracy. RPG is one of the most complex gametypes to develop. Simulations go beyond, but usually they focus on only 1 thing.

    And besides, like in EVERYTHING else, if you want to sell something, you are doing a game for other people, not for you. This is not modding, buddy, this is not free games…

    THEY WOULDN’T make a game that they knew wouldn’t sell or wouldn’t believe in. They can’t make the game just as everyone want’s. That would make the game a huge mess. There has to be someone in charge and deciding upon things.

    …This is business, and they are making it according to what sells the most. Your logic is flawed.

    What have I just been saying all the time, you don’t seem to understand what is written. The development costs, and they must make it even atleast, that’s the minimum. Just a side question, how much do you think it would costs to make a Fallout 3 game(of your own vision)? Where would you find the people do it? There is more to it than just marketing, and even Fallout & Fallout 2 needed some. Critical success doesn’t mean the game will sell.

    Aiming game to a niche group is a commercial suicide, why should Bethesda do it? As I said, make your own. Only fan project(fallout) that has made an impact to me is Killaps mods. Other ones don’t really cut it.

    All in all, you managed to miss my point. I am not agreeing on everything Bethesda does, but at the same time I don’t agree on the niche group of Fallout fans that are anal beyond absurd. There is fantasy, then there is reality.

  10. @ s001
    It has ALWAYS been like that.

    @ droveri

    Fallout & Fallout 2 didn’t have that great sales, good for RPG games, but nothing stellar.

    They still sell, and they’d sell even more if they were actually being sold in gamestores… And you’re right, “good for RPGs”. You know what? They ARE RPGs, what a coincidence!

    Game with engine and art of Fallout 2 wouldn’t sell, and we are talking about modern games here.

    Modern games, yeah, of course, that’s why I referred spiderweb (when I said Geneforge) because they are modern (as in released in the near past) and they have graphics worse than Fallout and there’s a Geneforge 5! How’s that? I don’t know…

    The thing you dont’ grasp here is, that people don’t do their job for free, and there is inflation of prices also in the gameindustry.

    No, what you don’t get is that some jobs are simply NOT NEEDED. That’s what I’m talking about. You don’t need 50 people working on graphics to have an awesome RPG.

    How can I be the one missing the point if you are quoting me?

    That was kind of a sarcasm…

    Dumbing down, that’s the most heard argument in this feud. I don’t agree on either side, i.e that consoles wouldn’t affect the other versions – of course they do. But the extent is totally up to the developer.

    I don’t get it. You just said it “Fallout wouldn’t sell on the consoles”. Ok, I agree. Now we look at what games DO SELL on the consoles, and do you see any game that is more complex than Fallout? See where I’m coming from? Of course a console game is not inherently dumbed down, OF COURSE not, and you insult me by thinking I meant that…

    And as proven, PC only game wouldn’t break even with modern developmentcosts and piracy.

    There are no “modern development costs”. There are AAA development costs, B-like development costs and indie development costs. And all the points in between. You choose the development costs according to your target audience and the money you expect to make. Is that that hard to understand?

    THEY WOULDN’T make a game that they knew wouldn’t sell or wouldn’t believe in. They can’t make the game just as everyone want’s. That would make the game a huge mess. There has to be someone in charge and deciding upon things.

    Which eventually replies to nothing when compared to what I said. Or I didn’t get your point. Care to explain?

    All in all, you’ve got to say “this is our ideal costumer”. Of course that costumer will never exist in reality, but that ideal costumer you have in mind when you create something will set the point for your actual target audience. You can make your ideal costumer a geeky old loon that only likes to see boobs jumping around. Of course there’s gonna be few people like that buying you thing, but there’s gonna be a lot of people that match some aspects of that geeky old loon. See DoAxTreemeVoleyball2 for example. The better that geeky old loon likes the game, the more you’ll sell to your target audience. Fallout’s ideal customer is a PnP lover, PostApoc fan that doesn’t like where most games were headed to. Oblivion ideal customer is a 15 year old kid that loves his xbox and bloomy graphics and running around killing stuff. That’s why it sold so good: there are LOTS of kids like that… (I probably should have mentioned brainless too…) You go figure… You have to do a game for a target audience. If you make a game for yourself, don’t even expect to get a publisher… Because he’ll ask you “who’s this game aimed to” and you’ll say “me?”… ahah…

    What have I just been saying all the time, you don’t seem to understand what is written.

    Ok, then you contradict yourself.

    Just a side question, how much do you think it would costs to make a Fallout 3 game(of your own vision)?</blockquote
    Ok, let me see… 25k for actual expenses, then, I don’t know, 2k average for mouthy payments to about 10 employees multiplied by the number of mouths the game would take to make (I’ll get to that later) plus something else for the leads and stuff like that (it’s never bad to be prepared). Let’s see, three years for a decent game, I’d say it’d take about a million dollars, and it’d have good people working on it. You could increase the amount a little bit, of course, because a million dollars is easy get back in sales if the game is good, like 20$x50k? Yeah, that oughta do it. Of course, I’m outside the industry and I’m not the one to talk, but I think I’m mostly there… 3 year development is very very good. 4 people for art (2D, 3D, animations), the rest programmers and level designers and stuff like that. Maybe outsource the sound. Yeah, I think it could pretty much make it.

    Where would you find the people do it?

    For 2k/mouth, I think, at least here in europe, there’re quite a few people willing to work on a worthy Fallout sequel… I think I’d be able to find them, yeah. Others can, why shouldn’t I?

    There is more to it than just marketing, and even Fallout & Fallout 2 needed some.

    As an indie dev, I’d proudly advertise my own game by myself (I could get some formation…), no problem there… There are plenty of sites out there that would possibly be willing to interview the team, make previews and stuff… Besides, viral marketing is quite cheaper…

    Critical success doesn’t mean the game will sell.

    It doesn’t, and there are quite a few examples of it out there. What means the game will sell is well placed money. If you needlessly spend money on things that aren’t needed then, well, the game won’t sell. And by not needed (in a game like Fallout), I’m talking about bloom and voice acting and shit like that… Not needed.

    Aiming game to a niche group is a commercial suicide, why should Bethesda do it?

    Sorry, but I’m going to insult you: [insert insult here]. [insert insult here]. There are PLENTY of examples out there of games aimed at niche markets. Look at paradox entertainment for instance. How are there three of those games and one other under the works? Huh?! Look at Silent Storm. How did they even get to release an expansion? Surely it must have sold at least two or three copies? Look at Troika. I mean, they did a mess in a few points, but how did they get to make arcanum (3 years in development) and then another niche market right after and THEN another game (after which release they went bankrupt but maybe today they wouldn’t – what about online selling and all that)? And others. So [insert insult here].

    All in all, you managed to miss my point. I am not agreeing on everything Bethesda does, but at the same time I don’t agree on the niche group of Fallout fans that are anal beyond absurd. There is fantasy, then there is reality.

    And there’s stupidity. How is it fantasy to want a game like the other ones? How is it fantasy to want a Something 3 to be like the other Somethings? How is it fantasy not to care about graphics and not to care if the game is aimed at mainstream or not? Is it fantasy that a game that has NOT high development costs sells if aimed at niche markets and is good? I don’t think so…

  11. @Gimli
    I haven’t forgotten about digital downloads, it’s just that there aren’t are real numbers out there. Having said that, I have bought 3 games off Steam last year, and Valve is turning into a real success story on the digital download front.

    @Morbus
    Yous seem to be really homing in on Bethesda saying they play games they want to play, but you seem to be taking the phrase literally as if they are saying screw everybody else.

    The phrase probably comes from the guys there playing lots of different games in different genres, combined with their development experience is just a roundabout way of saying ‘we understand what makes a fun game and we probably know what other people might enjoy also’. Judging by the critical and commercial successes of Morrowind and Oblivion, I’d say they might not be far off.

    Your arguments to me sound like someone who doesn’t understand or chooses to ignore the current industry trends or even the economies of scale of game development. To say that graphical things aren’t needed is true in the sense that you could plug up your Atari and play Pitfall and have a blast, but patently false if you planned on showing something that looked like Pitfall at E3 alongside something like Gears of War 2 for example. You probably aren’t even taking into account distributor conventions where reps for people like Wal Mart and Best Buy, etc. go to look at games to see which ones will get purchased and how much shelf space they get (a lot of it based on visuals)- you’ve got to grab peoples attention in a matter of seconds- games need to look as good as they can, period.

    And your game dev guesstimate of 20$x50k is far, far, off base. You aren’t even taking into account the infrastructure of running a development team. What about legal? Marketing? HR? Office manager? What about supplies, computers, maintenance, internet? IT staff? What about your QA staff? What about your packaging and/or distribution costs? Game promotion costs? And good luck finding an experienced, good programmer who only makes 2k a month, LOL (the game is being made in the US, not Europe so if you think you can find 2k employees to make a spiritual successor to Fallout in Europe, then go for it)!.

    Anyway. you guys are going to get it, mod it, and add and change everything in it until it plays like the game you want anyway, so what’s the big deal again? Fat man stupid? Someone will mod it out of the game or change it. Perks and Traits not to your liking? Someone will change those too. You guys are still modding the original Fallouts after all these years so I’m quite sure some really cool stuff will appear in short order (assuming the mod tools are made available, can’t see why not though). Regardless of what the original game looks like, I’d have thought you guys would be excited at the possibilities of doing your own thing with the game, but whatever.

  12. No one asks you to roll over anything, you should just understand the basics behind it. They bought the license, so they own it, so they will make a Fallout game. I am not into guessing games, what is done is done.

    Who says I don’t understand that. I understand it better than you. Yet why exactly should that make me change my attitude?

    You didn’t get the point obviously. So I will explain: if you go out to make a game, you make a game YOU wan’t to do. Not game what someone else WANT’S you to do.

    You didn’t get the point obviously. So I will explain: Bethesda is working on their own game, they’re working on the sequel to someone else’s game.

    So, then comes this, as Fallout community is so vocal, and so anal on every detail. Why don’t they make their own Fallout envisioned game, make a true sequel.

    You mean like Shelter? Age of Decadence? The FIFI projects? Afterfall?

    s001:

    I just want to add, strictly talking about sales, that anybody crusading for Fallout 3 to be similar to the first 2 or even Van Buren is obviously playing with somebody elses money. You guys seen the PC sales numbers?

    And how did the PC market get this way? By Bethesda and others like it flattening and pulping the market until the whole console-to-PC stuff was meaningless.

    Bless you guys for sticking to your guns, but if they want to sell games the last thing they should do is listen to NMA because you guys throw all fiscal and market responsibility out the window when making your demands.

    Really? We advised Interplay not to work on F:BoS but work on Fallout 3 instead. Do you think Fallout 3 would’ve made less money than BoS?

    Your market assumptions won’t always work. Especially not on a classic title. Bethesda is treading on Titan’s ground, but they’re still acting like merchants.

    Besides, what market are we talking about? North American and non-digital, exactly the markets PC gaming is moving away from, again a tip of the hat to Bethesda for that one. I have no idea what the Witcher sold, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s over half a million by now. That game has good production value, a solid storyline and – yes – action-y gameplay. And PC only. Does it look like it’s cutting a loss?

    droveri:

    Fallout & Fallout 2 didn’t have that great sales, good for RPG games, but nothing stellar.

    Fallout’s sales made Fargo decide to immediately put Fallout 2 in the pipeline, before Interplay got slowly bogged down by D&D and consoles. What does that tell you about its relative sales and value?

    The thing you dont’ grasp here is, that people don’t do their job for free, and there is inflation of prices also in the gameindustry.

    How can I be the one missing the point if you are quoting me?

    That’s funny. Because it looks to me as if you’re missing the point. The market isn’t as inflexible as you seem to think. You can’t produce only multi-million blockbusters with nothing in the niches.

    Hell, if Bethesda were really Fallout fans (but honestly, they’re not), you’d think they’d run two projects simultaneously: a Fallout spin-off for the mainstream and a Fallout sequel to the fans. That’s what a fan or artist would do.

    All in all, you managed to miss my point. I am not agreeing on everything Bethesda does, but at the same time I don’t agree on the niche group of Fallout fans that are anal beyond absurd.

    Really? How much effort have you made to absorb the Fallout fans wishes and views? Sounds to me like you’re riding on pre-conceptions.

    s001

    Judging by the critical and commercial successes of Morrowind and Oblivion, I’d say they might not be far off.

    Not far off in their ability to water down the RPG genre until it’s just action/adventure? True that. And if sales is all you care about, I guess that’s a good thing. If you care about RPGs, or even the Elder Scrolls, it’s a damned shame.

    Your arguments to me sound like someone who doesn’t understand or chooses to ignore the current industry trends or even the economies of scale of game development.

    Oh good. You’re one of those types that believes in monolinear monoliths of game development that have been storming everything towards EA-ization for aeons now?

    Who was that philosopher that said “he who accepts thinks as they are and not as they should be is a fool”?

    Anyway. you guys are going to get it, mod it, and add and change everything in it until it plays like the game you want anyway, so what’s the big deal again?

    Ahahaha. The classic Bethesda fan argument.

    Tell me, s001, do you generally buy chairs broken and don’t complain, but fix them? Do you not mind when your car is really pretty but you still have to add an engine?

    I’ll be paying money for this thing, assuming I’ll buy it (I’m still assuming Bethesda will send me a press review copy. I am a game journalist, after all). Why should I pay money for something I have to fix up myself? I’m not here to do Bethesda’s job for them, no matter how much they need the help, desperately.

  13. “Bethesda is working on their own game” should read “Bethesda isn’t working on their own game”, obviously

    Oh, and additionally:

    Regardless of what the original game looks like, I’d have thought you guys would be excited at the possibilities of doing your own thing with the game, but whatever.

    Ah, right, first our faces will be rubbed in the mud and the games we love insulted, but it’ll be okay because then we get a towel

    You seem to be driving on some preconceptions about Fallout fans that won’t work. At least not after Tactics (most pre-ordered game in Interplay history):
    – That we’ll buy this game. That’s what people told us about Fallout: BoS. Just because Bethesda slaps the name on it doesn’t mean we’re fooled, though.
    – That we should be happy with Fallout 3 regardless. Why? As long as it’s just Fallout 1/2 the series’ integrity is intact, and I can hope for a Fallout 3 that remains true to the core (and that’s has nothing to do with graphics or marketability, even TB could be considered a peripheral matter for a dual system, but it’s in the hands of a bunch of people that keep showing to us that they don’t get it).
    But the moment Fallout 3 is released, the series’ integrity is gone, and it’ll officially become the RPG/FPS that Bethesda is imagining. Fallout 1 and 2 will remain, but the franchise will be dead, with only its setting – or a parody of it – remaining as proof that it ever was.

    Yeah. That does tick me off just a little bit,

  14. @Brother None

    Your argument is just silly:

    “do you generally buy chairs broken and don’t complain, but fix them? Do you not mind when your car is really pretty but you still have to add an engine?”

    In both cases, something needs to happen before they can be usable at all. Now if the disc just didn’t work at all then you could make those analogies, but you’ll certainly be able to play the game. Whether or not you like the game is up to you, but a car without an engine is useless regardless of what you think. Please.

    Oh, and the PC market is the way it is because not everybody wants to deal with the constant upgrading or complexity of a computer to play a game. Both consumers and developers generally opt for a more stable, secure platform that’s generally living room friendly. It’s got nothing to do with the games or lack of quality as you imply, or you’d still see multi platform releases moving comparable units on PC comparable to their console counterparts.

    I’m sure someone will want to have the last word, but I’m done with this thread. Enjoy the rest of the site 🙂

  15. In both cases, something needs to happen before they can be usable at all. Now if the disc just didn’t work at all then you could make those analogies, but you’ll certainly be able to play the game. Whether or not you like the game is up to you, but a car without an engine is useless regardless of what you think. Please.

    Actually, the analogy is surprisingly apt considering I just thought it up. Oblivion is just an empty shell. There’s nothing to do in there that isn’t mind-bendingly boring and scaled to your level.

    For a lot of people (not me, I thought Oblivion was meh but ok), Oblivion is in fact unplayable without modding.

    It’s funny how much Bethesda relies on a bunch of modders to fix their fuck-ups. That’s corporate professionalism, for you.

    Oh, and the PC market is the way it is because not everybody wants to deal with the constant upgrading or complexity of a computer to play a game.

    …That doesn’t really have much to do with anything.

    Besides, I don’t have to upgrade at all. Most RPGs released these days are shit. You really think I’m going to upgrade my computer for Oblivion? Please.

    Both consumers and developers generally opt for a more stable, secure platform that’s generally living room friendly. It’s got nothing to do with the games or lack of quality as you imply, or you’d still see multi platform releases moving comparable units on PC comparable to their console counterparts.

    Imply? I outright said it. People don’t play PC games because they don’t offer anything new, because folks from BioWare, EA and Bethesda have been tugging at what makes PC games unique to make them more like console games. I dropped console gaming after Sega left for exactly the same reason, it’s just a PC with a different cover.
    All in good fun, I can enjoy the odd hack’n’slash every now and again, but it’s less funny how that obsession with graphics over meaningful content killed PC gaming, isn’t it? Or what, your brilliant market understanding doesn’t allow for the fact that heaps of shitty games ill-suited for the PC market might just have hurt the market and driven away consumers? Just a bit? How ’bout PC gamers don’t want to play shit like Call of Duty 4 or Oblivion, but want to play more meaningful games? Didn’t occur to you?

    Hell, it’s funny when people talk of the “inevitableness” of this. Bethesda can’t make Fallout 3 different than they’re doing not just because they’re not capable of this, but because they’re constrained by a market? Sure. But it’s not like they, a supposedly “independent” (but not really) company, are helping. They’re a fish acting like they’re EA.

    I don’t agree with the way RPGCodex frames the debates on RPGs, but with Bethesda hype declaring Oblivion the greatest RPG of all time and now deciding to fuck over a classic franchise, I’m fairly sure history will look back at them as one of the worst things to ever happen to RPGs.

    Ever.

    Unreasonable? Perhaps, but amusingly, not less foolish than corporate apologism like s001 here is hanging onto.

    Oh, and it was Cervantes:
    “It is true folly to perceive life as it is, and not as it should be.”

    Perhaps something to consider before thumbing down to corporate interest and PR spiels, s001?

    I’m sure someone will want to have the last word

    What a delightfully predictable thing to say.

  16. Brother None, my reply was aimed towards Morbus, and the discussion between us. Also quoting only parts of text and replying to them loses the point of the quote.

    Morbus, give me figures how well the games sold? I am a Hearts of Iron fan, but it doesn’t change the fact they don’t sell really well. Also, all of your examples have gone out of business, except Paradox who relys on online distribution and Nival Interactive is working on Jagged Alliance 3.

    Rest of your points are fantasy, there are costs and consequences to everything. That particular question showed just how far off you are on this issue.

  17. @ s001

    Yous seem to be really homing in on Bethesda saying they play games they want to play, but you seem to be taking the phrase literally as if they are saying screw everybody else.

    That’s how I see it.

    Your arguments to me sound like someone who doesn’t understand or chooses to ignore the current industry trends or even the economies of scale of game development.

    I’d say I choose to ignore them, and I do understand. The thing is, they have little to do with what a game can be, specifically speaking, a Fallout game. What trends dude? What’s that to do with anything?

    To say that graphical things aren’t needed is true in the sense that you could plug up your Atari and play Pitfall and have a blast, but patently false if you planned on showing something that looked like Pitfall at E3 alongside something like Gears of War 2 for example.

    I don’t get it. Using the example I used before, how is it that I’m so amazed and excited about Age of Decadence? Am I nuts or something? How is it so many people are too?

    games need to look as good as they can, period.

    That’s true… When you’re talking about SHOOTERS!

    And your game dev guesstimate of 20$x50k is far, far, off base. You aren’t even taking into account the infrastructure of running a development team. What about legal? Marketing? HR? Office manager? What about supplies, computers, maintenance, internet? IT staff? What about your QA staff? What about your packaging and/or distribution costs? Game promotion costs? And good luck finding an experienced, good programmer who only makes 2k a month, LOL (the game is being made in the US, not Europe so if you think you can find 2k employees to make a spiritual successor to Fallout in Europe, then go for it)!.

    I don’t think per se, I just don’t know. And ask Iron Tower Studio: they spent like 25k TOTAL in a 3+ year development for the game they are making. My point is, they are doing it, why couldn’t I if I tried?

    Anyway. you guys are going to get it, mod it, and add and change everything in it until it plays like the game you want anyway, so what’s the big deal again?

    I’m not buying a game I don’t like, let alone spend time trying to FIX it… Ah…

    @ Brother None

    Really? We advised Interplay not to work on F:BoS but work on Fallout 3 instead. Do you think Fallout 3 would’ve made less money than BoS?

    QFT

    I have no idea what the Witcher sold, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s over half a million by now.

    Last I heard (a long time ago) they had sold a million. That was about a mouth after release, so I guess they are way over that now, and that’s a game that will easily sell a lot of time after release.

    @ s001

    In both cases, something needs to happen before they can be usable at all. Now if the disc just didn’t work at all then you could make those analogies, but you’ll certainly be able to play the game. Whether or not you like the game is up to you, but a car without an engine is useless regardless of what you think. Please.

    I get your point. Not loot at this. You’re a rally driver for the Subaru Team. You drive an Impreza 2007 (or whatever it’s called) and you’re used to its feel, its power, its handling, its weight and stuff like that. Then Subaru puts you at the wheel of an Impreza 2008 for next years rally. However, the car is no longer 4WD, has a lot more torque and less horsepower, is easier to handle at high speeds but becomes unstable when breaking and making tight corners, jumps a lot less and the suspension feels different when trying to correct. Say they change everything about the car BUT the aspect. How would you feel? It’s still an Impreza (it has teh NAME!!!) but it doesn’t feel like one. It looks exactly like one, but doesn’t feel like one… How about that comparison?

  18. @morbus

    s001 and I try to offer a different view to view things from. You keep pounding your view as the ultimate truth. As if WE were behind those things, which we are not. They are the current reality of the industry.

    There are things that can happen, and things that can’t. Things that can’t, is that Bethesda would make a Fallout 3 every fan would love. It is not that I like what they might be doing, by being realistic.

    There is certain variables(Bethesda & Fallout license) in the equation, and those determine the end result. The Witcher has sold far better than anyone expected, since it is a great game.

    If you look at the ratios by which for example Call of Duty 4 sold between PC and consoles, you can see where the money is. And as you said, money is thing they are after. They can’t be goodhearthed and do something for others just wish they’d to, and by doing so, making the company run out of business.

    I just played some Armageddon Empires, but I can’t see it being a commercial success ever, even if I happen to like it. Or Hearts of Iron 2: Doomsday, another favourite of mine.

    If someone was to do a real, I mean not just modding Fallout 2, Fallout game with the fanbase, I would surely help in modeling and texturing on my freetime. But that doesn’t really suffice alone.

  19. @ droveri

    s001 and I try to offer a different view to view things from. You keep pounding your view as the ultimate truth. As if WE were behind those things, which we are not. They are the current reality of the industry.

    The ultimate truth and the truth are one and the same. So keep your fancy speeches away from here, mkay? Yes, I keep pounding my view as the truth. Is that bad? Because you do the exact same thing and I don’t think it’s bad.

    Anyway, you still failed to explain how there are niche games that survive… today.

    There are things that can happen, and things that can’t. Things that can’t, is that Bethesda would make a Fallout 3 every fan would love. It is not that I like what they might be doing, by being realistic.

    No no, here’s a thing that may happen someday: a huge triple-A company makes a niche low budget game. It happened with Interplay, it could happen with Bethesda.

    If you look at the ratios by which for example Call of Duty 4 sold between PC and consoles, you can see where the money is.

    Of course you can, CoD4 is stupid, PC players have standards… That’s how *I* see it.

    They can’t be goodhearthed and do something for others just wish they’d to, and by doing so, making the company run out of business.

    Should they make a worthy sequel, they’d earn more money. Specially considering they wouldn’t need to spend as much…

  20. Why should I explain the survival of those games? Bethesda made a clear decision not to target nichemarkets, and that’s their choice. s001 and I just explained reasoning behind such acts.

    Show me one big developer that has targeted nichemarkets in the past year. Wishfull thinking also, since Bethesda is backed by Zenimax Media Inc.

    CoD4 has suffered from PC piracy, silly do deny that. AND claim it is due standards, since it seems people are very willing to play it for free. 10:1 ratio between consoles and PC version. http://www.game-monitor.com/search.php?search=cracked&type=server&game=cod4

    How many copies would worthy Fallout 3 shift? 100k, 200k, 800k? How much would they spent? What would rest of the team do? There are certain goals that they have to meet, and sales below 1million won’t meet those goals.

  21. I would like a true Fallout sequel, but at the same time I acknowledge the fact that it won’t happen in the near future. Fallout 3 might be good, or might not. That remains to be seen. I don’t disagree on everything they’ve done, which is something that most fans do.

  22. I would like a true Fallout sequel, but at the same time I acknowledge the fact that it won’t happen in the near future. Fallout 3 might be good, or might not. That remains to be seen. I don’t disagree on everything they’ve done, which is something that most fans do.

    That last part is a blatant lie, as many fans have showed they’re satisfied with Ron Perlman being hired, liked what they heard about the inside of the vault, found the world art fairly good, etc. etc. We don’t disagree for the sake of disagreeing, we disagree when it sucks.

    You seem to be missing the fact that it’s not as if Morbus and I aren’t dealing with this as well. You pretend you are above it all by simply rolling over and accepting it. But that changes nothing. We all have to live with what Bethesda is doing but some people have different ways of handling it. NMA, in particular, considers it its tasks to bring the old Fallout fan angle into the analysis and to be more truthful in its coverage than the coverage of Oblivion was. Now tell me, who exactly are we hurting by doing so?

    As if WE were behind those things, which we are not. They are the current reality of the industry.

    So? You’re defending them, hence we’re treating you as responsible for them. If you don’t like ’em either, feel free to ignore it, but don’t defend decisions based on “industry reality”, because it’s not as if this isn’t a self-enforcing spiral right down the shitter. Bethesda is both cause and consequence of the state of the industry, if you can’t see that…

    Bethesda made a clear decision not to target nichemarkets, and that’s their choice. s001 and I just explained reasoning behind such acts.

    No you didn’t. In fact, no one has given a sufficient reason that Bethesda couldn’t make a niche game with this franchise or, as I propose, a mainstream spin-off Action-RPG/FPS on one side and a small, dedicated team making a real Fallout 3 on the other side. That’d be great PR, they wouldn’t lose anything and they’d have the fans on their side rather than the roll of negative PR we’re in now.

    You and s001 have either ignored these arguments or just said “yeah, but no one is doing it”. “No one is doing it” does not equate “it can’t be done”.

    Wishfull thinking also, since Bethesda is backed by Zenimax Media Inc.

    Not backed, owned.

  23. http://www.bit-tech.net/columns/2008/02/02/the_sky_is_falling/1
    Apropos


    Suffice it to say, there are a lot of missed factors in this “study” (we’ll continue calling it that for lack of a better name that isn’t insulting). But one aspect completely stood out to pretty much everyone – it didn’t even look at digital distribution. Allow me to repeat this in a more meaningful way:

    A study that examines PC video game sales does not include the Internet – which has already been chosen as the method of choice for nearly all PC-related content delivery from music to movies to software. And games are starting to catch up, too.”

    “What’s even more frightening is that CEOs and Presidents of companies are “listening” to this to excuse flagging sales. Mark Rein already jumped up to cry about the figures, stating that consoles are killing the PC market. It won’t be long before he and John Carmack put their heads together at some symposium or whatnot, explaining how consoles outstrip PC sales because of piracy and how the gamer is the real culprit killing the industry.

    It’s almost as if the industry secretly wants the PC to fall – and it’s not that hard to understand why. The beat of ever-marching technology improvements means PC games require more work and go obsolete faster, meaning more money on engine development and less on sheer production. Nobody really buys a year-old PC game; whereas, since consoles don’t change technologically, an older game can look as new and crisp as a fresh release – but with the added benefit of an established gamer base.

    Heh, that last part instantly made me think of s001’s posts. You’re really good at corporate apologism, s001. Are you a gaming journalist?

  24. That’s just silly, they aren’t opinions, they are facts. You can’t make facts to be our fault. Also, I don’t see that as defending, but you seem to see it at that, and act like you are on the “opposite side attacking”. Again foolish. We only offer a new view to this issue, as explained. Is a habit in NMA to attack people directly when they offer information that is not align with NMA’s? From what I’ve read your site, the remarks after every newspost are some witty oneliners that doesn’t really give a good picture of the whole site.

    Neither of you NMA guys have answered how big such team would be, what would they need, and how much money that would cost? They COULD do it money wise, but will it be a commercial success, will it make on it’s own? Would it be PC only? Or appear on consoles? What changes would it need to be on PC and consoles at the same time? Or would PC get the “true sequel” and consoles the Fallout 3 they are making now?

    I am very well aware of the relationship between Zenimax and Bethesda, and you seem to be ignorant on the fact how much that affects Bethesda. They can’t make a zero profit gameproject.

    ALL this, even if I have stated numerous times I am not here to defend Bethesda, there is reasoning behind everything, solid facts that can’t be ignored.

  25. @ droveri

    Show me one big developer that has targeted nichemarkets in the past year.

    Interplay. Obsidian. Blizzard. BioWare. Relic. Rockstar. Of course they know how to do it, at least Blizzard does. Yeah, you’re going to tell me StarCraft is not niche, or even Diablo. And of course they are not masters of nichedom, but they are niche and by big developers. Even EA goes for niche many times.

    The thing is, it means little if it’s niche or not, if it’s good, it’s going to sell, and that’s what counts for those corporate bitches right? Of course, in the mainstream, if the graphics are good then it will sell. Bioshock, Halo, Gears of War, Crysis, you name them. Name ONE game with awesome graphics that didn’t sell well or at least better than it should… Name one.

    And oh, BTW, I choose to forgot about the “past year” part… I think it doesn’t really matter. Does it?

    CoD4 has suffered from PC piracy, silly do deny that.

    Of course it has, and it serves them bloody right! Civilization 4 didn’t suffer though, and it’s PC only. That’s because, for some reason, niche games that say off the mainstream tend NOT to be focus of mindless piracy. Pirates have a general profile, you know? They usually have top notch computers and play the latest shooters and stuff like that. It’s not wonder why CoD4 and so many other mainstream crap get clobbered. Really…

    I would like a true Fallout sequel, but at the same time I acknowledge the fact that it won’t happen in the near future.

    Of course it will. It’s coming this Fall, from… Iron Tower Studio. You can just pretend it’s called Fallout 3 and that the setting is similar, and you have yourself a worthy Fallout sequel. Even when its biggest inspiration is not Fallout 😛

    I’m not kidding.

  26. This is the second time I have to leave on a rush for a few days and you guys start a really good discussion. I should leave more often…

    Droveri I lost the message you’ve send me with those nice links, can you send it again please?

    And Morbus everything is edited now, thanks for calling my attention.

  27. You can’t make facts to be our fault. Also, I don’t see that as defending, but you seem to see it at that, and act like you are on the “opposite side attacking”.

    Attacking? What the hell? This is the internet, I’m not attacking shit, I’m explaining my views.

    Neither of you NMA guys have answered

    Because no one asked?

    To answer your questions: all Troika games made a profit, albeit a small one. This including the turn-based ToEE and the Fallout-esque Arcanum. Troika couldn’t hold up because they didn’t have enough publisher backing to keep running (profits go to publishers, not developers), since Bethesda is self-publishing, they can skip this problem.

    Since reality proves that you can profitably make PC-only advanced RPGs of the Troika mould, I don’t have to.

    ALL this, even if I have stated numerous times I am not here to defend Bethesda, there is reasoning behind everything, solid facts that can’t be ignored.

    What you don’t seem to realise, still – though it’s been explained multiple times, back-to-back – is that this doesn’t matter.

    Reality is what it is, it’ll always be what it is. You’re not changing anything by saying it is what it is just as I’m not directly changing anything by saying it shouldn’t be what it is. And yet you pretend I’m somehow in the wrong.

    I quoted Cervantes for a reason (look it up, it’s up there), because by saying “I’d like a real Fallout 3 but I won’t get it so I’ll live with what I get”, all you do is give up a bit of your personal interest for corporate interest. I’m not willing to do that. I have no problem with the fact that you’re willing to do that (notice how I never once told you what to do), but if you’re going to pretend it’s some kind of more sensible position to take you’re deluding yourself. +1

  28. I can’t change what Bethesda does with Fallout 3, but I surely would lend a hand if there was some decent try on making Fallout inspired game.

    I get your point, but I don’t wan’t to be trashed just because I brought some facts to the table. They are facts, and as such, are not my opinion.

    briosafreak, http://www.bfapocalypse.com/ – a Battlefield 2 Total Conversion. Looks ok, but seems to be just MP in apocalyptic settings.

    Also, http://www.armageddonempires.com/ – If you, and others, haven’t checked that out.

  29. Well ok, you got a point there, I apologize.

    The thing is, I’m used to seeing the “facts are facts” thing used when making excuses. Russia’s not really a democracy anymore? So what? Facts is facts! It’s a kind of defeatist attitude to just spend your time affirming facts. Not really my tihng.

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